Friday, May 30, 2008

Male Female dynamics revisited.

Aright, it's happened again, another SM thread got closed too early.

This one is on the often discussed phenom of interracial relationships, and yes once again, it's the desi woman attempting to defend their actions,

when really a defense is not required. Rather just an honest look and admission

Now, the person with whom this exchange was carried out with, Ak, is actually a very honest and forthright person, she's willing to actually challenge most gender norms and has hinted at real belief in equality between the genders, this already puts her in the top 1%. So just wanted to make that clear, but her last contribution in this exchange had really exposed her lack of understanding on certain basic issues. Let's go over them:

link

my statement:

"It's not towards them, it's toward their inability to realize how they've been socially manipulated and disneyfied, and more so than that, how most of them get burned in the long run (many data points to prove this). but in the end, maybe they deserve it."

her response:

please. maybe if there is a racist attitude involved, they 'deserve' it. but when many guys say this, it is sour grapes - at their core, many of these men who comment about such inter-racial couples are not upset over the racist element, if any - they are upset because they feel they are directly affected by it b/c they lost out on yet another potential desi girl. i don't see (as many) desi men lamenting when black or latina women date outside their respective races. "


Of course, here is where she tries to compartmentalize things in an impractical way. Of course there will be an element of racialized thinking. the entire white race is *defined* by racialized thinking. The white race wouldn't exist as a group, if not for superiority and racial heirarchies. Her point of the guys major complaint being "losing out a potential desi girl" is not supported, by her OWN STATEMENTS!

her statement: "have many a desi guy friend who have felt desi women being 'stolen' from them by white guys, but no such sentiment when the women they desired (or didn't desire, as the case may be) were dating somebody else who happened to be desi.."

link here

you can't have it both ways. first you say desi men only get pissed off when whiteboys take our 'sisters', then you go on to say desi guys are only pissed because they lose a potential option. So which is it? are us desi guys pissed that we are getting once again shafted for not being white? or are we just pissed we can't fuck a potential "one of our own"

Now, I wont discount your point entirely, there is an element of a 'lost shot' but the reason it irks us when you go white instead of to another desi guy, is precisely because you must acknowledge the nature of what it means to BE white, ie, a notion of superiority to other races.

her statement continued:

"so, what is this - revenge via marriage? just because you have some grudge against white people and history doesn't mean that everybody else has to. and have we learned nothing that we should continue such practises in our generation and time? it's a very slippery slope to continue attributing to individuals the actions and crimes of their race and ancestors. if i want to marry a white guy, i really don't give a toss what anybody else thinks - don't try to second-guess the thinking - consciously or sub-consciously - of everybody that doesn't conform to your approved practises. "

Ah, now here's some real errant thinking. the ol' "grudge against white people" argument. Of course, anyone who points out historical fact, all of a sudden has a 'grudge'. Secondly, by pointing out that history and suggesting action or at least acknowledgement of that history, we are "continuing such practices in our generation and time"? Was MLK "continuing such practices" when he demanded rights for black people, and demanded SPECIAL TREATMENT to help the 'shackled runner'? To neglect a power hierarchy and its translation into the sphere of relationships is, to put it plain, naive. Seriously this is like 2nd grade stuff here.

As for you marrying a white guy, go right ahead, and don't give a toss what anyone thinks, just don't delude yourself into thinking you arrived at that choice in a complete vacuum - and were able to 'think beyond race'

"and of propensities towards white people - this may be so, but i don't know what says that we shouldn't have a propensity towards white people, or "

nothing, yearn for that white, circumsized dick as much as you want, just acknowledge the reasons why such a propensity would exist, and realize that it's not some coincidence pieced together independent of the racial history and the images of who and what we define as attractive. it's the same reason I shriek when I hear desi guys say, " I just dont find black girls attractive" and don't have the guts to understand why such a preference would come to fruition in the first place.

"that we should have a propensity towards desi people. each person is a result of their circumstances, be they geographical, socio-economic, ethnic, religious, academic or otherwise. and these may very well make them have more in common with somebody who is of a differet race or ethnicity, but nonetheless they have - not just think they have - more in common with such people, whether or not other desis think that is 'right.'""

Sorry, but I dont care if you're a desi living in the biggest podunk redneck town in the world, if you think you have "more in common" with someone outside of your race, that's simply ridiculous on a large scale level. No white person has ever been mistaken carte blanche for a terrorist. No white person has been denied anything for that matter, or been made to feel like a complete outsider simply because their skin is the wrong tone.

Say you don't like your culture, or your history, or you think all Indian guys have small dicks, or whatever, but quit trying to sugar coat what's going on behind the curtain here.

Especially for us as 1st generation immigrants. for most of us, our parents are all from India, (or south asia), we are at a unique point in time where our experiences easily translate. Its the reason why a blog such as SM gets so much readership in the first place! Is this really so difficult to process?

18 comments:

Anonymous said...

why single out WOC who date white men? If white supremacy is as all encompassing as you say, wouldn't it affect all of us? Couldn't we speculate that indian women who date black men suffer from a lack of self-esteem and thus date lower on the racial totem pole? Or desis who stick to desi do so in part b/c they feel they can't attract the more desirable white. These individuals surely don't live in a vacuum either. Haven't they also been "socially manipulated" and "disneyfied" but their manipulation takes the form of avoiding whites, b/c they see them as superior, or dating blacks, b/c they've been trained to see them as inferiror? After all, you don't have to read freud in order to underestand that humilation and sexual attraction often go hand in hand.

Or perhaps they've gotten beyond white supremacy to see people as individuals, in which case it raises the possibility that others, specifically those who date white, can do so too...and your description of their (hidden) motives may very well be wrong.

THE_HMF said...

this is getting to be really depressing that you're the only one reading this.

but you put me in the business of repeating myself once again

your bs argument

" Haven't they also been "socially manipulated" and "disneyfied" but their manipulation takes the form of avoiding whites"

No. they don't AVOID whites., they just prefer people who are guaranteed to have a shared experience, to some degree (if each party acks that shared history, ie, neither is an uncle tom)

but as AK suggestd, and you are now, a preference for white cannot be arrived at in the same way... given what WHITE means, and what it has meant in the social history of this country.

read "working towards whiteness" and you'll understand this.

Or perhaps they've gotten beyond white supremacy to see people as individuals,

This is delusional at best and idiotic at worst. Look at most of the interracial couples that exist, they often are women of color with white men. Do you think this is some convenient fact that just occurred randomly? Seriously, pull your head outside of your ass. (and from previous exchanges with you, it's deeply wedged there)

THE_HMF said...

Or desis who stick to desi do so in part b/c they feel they can't attract the more desirable white

no. argumentative as well, just because whites are preferred due to social conditioning, doesn't mean whites are avoided due to social conditioning. The social conditioning is one of 'white being better', i.e. a preference. so only proclivities towards dating them could result from it.

But what the desi women don't realize is.. the white men know this ! They're not stupid either! they've been raised in a society to think of themselves as entitled, inherently more 'masculine', and just general better mates in an overall human, societal sense (being more understanding, and romantic and all that bullshit) This translates to women as well for them!

And in many cases, that belonging and inclusiveness they've been able to hoodwink the desi girl with comes crashing down. and like I said before, if the desi girl has been made aware of the phenom (by interaction with people such as myself) and forged ahead anyway, perhaps she deserves to feel that blade of racism closely.

Anonymous said...

"This is delusional at best and idiotic at worst. Look at most of the interracial couples that exist, they often are women of color with white men. Do you think this is some convenient fact that just occurred randomly? Seriously, pull your head outside of your ass. (and from previous exchanges with you, it's deeply wedged there)"

i recently read that black men/white women make up 73% of all black/white raltionships. how do you explain that?

THE_HMF said...

It means you once again are proving how much of an idiot you are.

By conditioning it on black white relationships it takes it to a different sample space. What it says is, that black women are less likely to go after white men.

It says nothing about the majority of interracial relationships, especially in the case of those in the south asian community (of which this discussion is directly discussing)

I'm sure if you were to check stats on the predominant interracial relationships with south asian people it would be: white male/south asian female.

Anonymous said...

"What it says is, that black women are less likely to go after white men."

You're just making assertions. How do you know this is true?

"It says nothing about the majority of interracial relationships,"

why? blacks don't count? They make up a substantial minority in america and if a whoppoing 70% of them are blck men /white women, then your claim that "most of the interracial couples that exist, they often are women of color with white men", which you think is very significant, may very well be wrong.

"I'm sure if you were to check stats on the predominant interracial relationships with south asian people it would be: white male/south asian female."

i've read that asian women are twice as likely to have white spouses than their male counterparts. However, I've not seen any stats for south asians. anecdotally, i haven't noticed more indian women dating more interrracially than men, but i'm open to stats.

i believe hispanic men and women date interracially at the same rate. so, i'm not sure how true your assertion really is,and it might very well be wrong, considering it doesn't hold true for blacks and hispanics, americas largest ethnic minorities. it seems to be only an asian thing, and the jury's out about south asians.

but given the stats on blacks and hispanics, your disneyfication racial media theory probably needs to be rethunk.

THE_HMF said...

"They make up a substantial minority in america and if a whoppoing "

But do they make up a substantial percentage of interracial relationships. Thats what counts.

if there's 10,000 blacks, and only 100 of them are interracially related, that means nothing compared to

there being 5000 south asians and 1000 of them being interracially related.

for example, and your statistic of 70% of the black/white relations being blck male and white female is meaningless. if the absolute # is less. so where's your absolute #.

Anecdotally, nearly all of the interracial relationships in the south asian community are indian women/white male. for the exact reasons I state...

Anonymous said...

"for example, and your statistic of 70% of the black/white relations being blck male and white female is meaningless. if the absolute # is less. so where's your absolute #."

the absolute number is more, though the % is less.

and notice how you provide no stats at all, but parse stats thet don't adhere to your theory by assuming a mathematically improbable scenario.

marriage rates from 2006:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage

Anonymous said...

"Anecdotally, nearly all of the interracial relationships in the south asian community are indian women/white male. for the exact reasons I state..."

Wrong. stats show desi men and women marry interracailly at the same rate. For example, %4.3 of all desi american women are married to whites while the men clock in at %5.5, even higher.

so your theory is completely wrong for desis and hispnics and even completely reversed for blacks, who you don't like to count.

the only demographic your assertion holds true for are non-desi asians. and even then, your underlying theory seems improbable, since why would they be the only group affected by the medis disnyfication.

more likely, U.S. servicemen post ww-II, korea, vietnam bringiing home Asian war brides plus female asian privildge re beauty standards (look at newcasters being either laurie dhue's or connie chungs) has more to do with it. asian fetish rivals blonde fetish, at least with white men.

Anonymous said...

oh, here are the stats:

http://www.asian-nation.org/interracial2.shtml

THE_HMF said...

your stupidity has reached it's zenith.

The very site you provide says :

"In analyzing intermarriage rates, many scholars argue that it is more accurate to focus on this portion of the Asian American population rather than on all Asian Americans because these Asians who were raised in the U.S. constitute the group that is most "at risk" in the statistical sense. That is, having grown up in the U.S., they are immersed in American culture and interracial dynamic, much more so than immigrants who were already married when they came to the U.S."


And looking at those, south asian women marry white at a whopping 5% more 36 to 31, and its exactly for the reasons I state. The site has to be PC so they'll just leave it at "immersed in American culture" but what does American culture teach a desi female as opposed to teaching a desi male.?

That white men are better all-round members of society - are more emotionally stable partners, not that they are just better looking (which man uncle tom women feel anyway)

Care to provide more stats to prove me correct?

Anonymous said...

Hmf:

I'm going to withdraw form this convo b/c now you're not keeping it real.

so you claim that "nearly all of the interracial relationships in the south asian community are indian women/white male", yet a whopping %31 of us-born desi males marry whites, a mere 5% less than their female counterparts.

so now you're reduced to claiming a5% diffential is whopping, while erasing black and hispanic women who are no longer conveinient...despinte the fact that your orignal claim was "Look at most of the interracial couples that exist, they often are women of color with white men."

the stats have proven you wrong yet you persist. what a phony.

Anonymous said...

"nearly all of the interracial relationships in the south asian community are indian women/white male"

I mean, I'm flabbergasted even though its you. can you explain to me how you can maintain this assertion given the stats i showed you? Nearly all? its close to 50-50? wtf?

and that just desis, it even worse for you when you throw in blacks and Hispanics, who you apparently have no experience with. maybe you're really Korean.

THE_HMF said...

Fine withdraw, i didnt invite you to start it. You're a complete idiot and continue proving it to me.

But 31% of desi males marrying white is a sizable number, but not as big as 36% you tried to bullshit your way around it by using the non-US born statistic and got caught out. Accept it like a true republican.

And as for black/hispanic women, that still doesn't refute my claim of most interracial relationships being females of color with white men. In order to offset the uncle tomasness of asian and south asian women, every black/hispanic male would have to marry a white woman.

You aren't basing your discussion with absolute numbers.

Anecdotally I've seen far more asian/south asian women with white men. And its exactly for the reasons I state. Now you, being a true and determined uncle tom, will never understand this as you are a particpant in the behavior. As an ex participant in the behavior, I knew what I once was, and what I am now. I keep it real, I know no other way.

Go f8ck yourself.

THE_HMF said...

"I mean, I'm flabbergasted even though its you. can you explain to me how you can maintain this assertion given the stats i showed you? Nearly all? its close to 50-50? wtf?"

You quote partially, I dont have the time to keep running around and showing you how much of an idiot you are.

I'm saying anecdotally, that's the majority I've seen. and it's not 50/50, 5% is a huge difference given the absolute percentage is 31%, this means indian woman are approximately 6 times as likely to marry out of race than men are.

and besides, this entire study is just a small sample, as it's restricted to MARRIAGE you dumb f*ck.

if you discuss pure relationships, or definitions of what women find "attractive" the stats you provide go to hell, as you should too..

It's 4th of july, shouldnt you be on the corner someplace sucking Dsouza's dick, clamoring about how great america is?

THE_HMF said...

The original discussion was pertaining to relationships, stats that discuss marriage exclusively are absolutely useless.

In fact, in your first comment you alluded to this, but then shifted the sphere of discussion to suit your own points.

"why single out WOC who date white men?"

Your own stats show a significant increase in indian female affinity towards white men in marriage even, I'd guess if a survey was done to include "dating" the figures would be even higher.

So how about you give it up?

Anonymous said...

"What it says is, that black women are less likely to go after white men."

Actually the reverse is true. White men have not traditionally pursued black women due to perceived undesirablity of the same.

Anonymous said...

I'll defend our desi sistren here and say that desi men and their families often have higher "standards" than white guys and their's when it comes to whom they will date, marry, or accept as potential daughter-in-law. There is often less pressure with a white American family than with a desi American one.

Give the girls a break.